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by Glen Trew
As mentioned a couple of months ago in an August 21 article posted in Trew Audio Flow (see the article here), we discovered a problem having to do with noise being induced into the Canon 5D-MkII camera when – and only when – attached to the DR-60D. The amount of testing that could be done was limited by Tascam not being able to deliver more DR-60Ds at the time (they were between production runs). However, other customers responded to the report, saying they had the same problem with their DR-60D and 5D-MkII setup. So it may well be a consistent problem with earlier DR-60D recorders.
Last week we finally received 100 new units, so we resumed the testing…
First, we verified that the customer’s original setup (two Canon 5D-MkII cameras and a first production run DR-60D) still had the same noise problem, which it did. We then upgraded the customer’s DR-60D firmware from v1.0 to v1.1 and then to v1.2, which had no affect on solving the noise problem.
Next, we duplicated the setup, but substituting a Tascam DR-60D from the new batch. The noise was gone, the audio was clean, on the DR-60D as well as the Canon 5D-MkII camera.
While the testing leaves open the possibility that the original problem was isolated to a few units of an early production batch, it could well be due to a hardware or assembly difference between the original and the most recent batches. Regardless of what the full explanation is, the coast is now clear to buy the DR-60D with confidence.
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It might be interesting to know the serial number (approximate) of the old and new batches, so as to identify a potentially problematic unit available second-hand.
I second Carlos' comment as I have an early unit and while I haven't noticed any problems I would be interested in knowing if there is a possibility of noise with the 5DMkII.
The serial number range would be much appreciated.
Thanks
It's not just with the 5d. I used it with a prosumer camera and the noise was present. Induced by the threaded screw connection.
It does look like a ground loop then, The cases should have been isolated.
I'm curious about one thing. May be someone can answer this. I have a Canon 60D camera running Magic Lantern. I have multiple audio mics. Since I run Magic Lantern in automatic "movie restart" mode will the DR-60D stop and start recording automatically when the camera does? Or am I going to out of sync for the rest of the recording?
I´m not familiar with Magic Lantern, but I think you mean simultaneous start instead of out of sync, don´t you?
Sync between video and audio would be fine if both machines are running. Start point might not be the same though.
One thing I´m thinking of, for double system recording as this is, is to record synced time codes on one of the audio tracks in the video camera and audio recorder.
That should make syncying easier in edit. Has someone tried this with these multi-track recorders such as this, or Zoom or Roland?
Victor- IF I understand your question, you are asking about the feature of Magic Lantern that will restart recording when you reach the 4GB file size limitation. THis feature gives gap of a few seconds in your recording, during which time the DR-60D will continue recording. After this gap, you will need to sync manually.
The DR-60D does offer an "slate" function that can be configured to output a tone when you press the SLATE button on the front or automatically after you press record. These functions are disabled by default to prevent accidents. If you pressed slate at the beginning, and then pressed it just after the end of the take, you may be able to use that, as long as you haven't gone over your audio max file size.
But what do you have on the camera end, on the image or even its own audio, to sync things by?
I mean this would work if you use the same DR60 audio stream to inject it back on the camera audio track. Then it´s just a question of syncing video and DR60 audio on edit.
Wouldn´t a time code track be more automatic to work with?
Carlos -
The DR-60 has an audio output to the camera and, if the camera has a headphone output, you can feed it back into a return on the DR-60D that you can monitor. When you press the slate button a tone recorded on both the DR-60D and the camera audio track, which can then be used in post to sync.
Timecode would be a more elegant solution and could give you automated syncing. However, it would require an external timecode box and the sacrifice one of the audio inputs of the DR-60D to have it recorded on both devices. If that suits your workflow, it would work quite well.
You have to be very careful with the levels of the timecode as there are so many transients in the timecode signal and the TC outputs are often at very high levels that there is always a chance of signal bleed. This happens even in digital recordings and I know that camera audio is susceptible to this effect.
I remember to have tried and used time code on small Sony DAT portables and on MD, always using Denecke TC generators. Excellent results all the time.
Signal could be attenuated to -20dB on TC track, compared to audio track (0dB), and there would not be any bleed. In our case, the bleed we should care about is on the DR-60, of course. IMHO the camera audio would be used as mere guide and NEVER used.
The main importance for using TC would be when doing separate double system, of course. On such cases you wouldn´t be able to use the DR-60 slate.
As I come from film times, where we always used double-system, I know you can organize a recording routine even not using TC. But you would need some sort of slate, particularly on documentaries, where not disturbing the subjects is adamant. One thing you could do is using a wireless mic, not a very expensive one, to send the DR-60 output to the camera, enabling the DR-60 slate.
Hi. I have just experienced the noise issues featured in your previous blog and in this updated blog 'problem solved'. Seems kind of ironic that the very purpose of the device is undermined by its inability to do the job required when mounting to the 5D. I am in the process of returning a device now and wondered if you know why these faulty devices have not been withdrawn and are still available to buy? Also where can i buy this in the UK where I am garunteed to get the new stock? With thanks. Kev
Hi Kev,
We will attempt to get from Tascam the serial number where the improvement for this noise issue began, and post it here. At this point we are assuming that the noise problem is isolated to the earliest batch, but I can't say with certainty that it affected all batches, randomly, and may just be a coincidence that the few units in which we detected the noise problem were in the first batch, and all that we tested from the subsequent batch did not have the noise problem.
I'll see if we can answer these questions with the help of Tascam and post the results.
Glen Trew
Any update on what # DR60D's are affected? I am getting unusable ground loop noise while using a shared battery with Black Magic Camera. This is only with the DR60D, other devices can be powered with no noise introduced. It seems the DR60D is the culprit.
That is worrying, as I thought the problem was only related to situations where the Canon 5D was coupled to the DR-60. But if happens with the BM (CC or Pocket?) when sharing a power supply, it doesn't seem like a ground loop.
What serial number is your Tascam?
I too have the first batch and it has noise and ground loop issues which is unacceptable for this type of unit! Tascam should have recalled all first batch units to prevent unsuspecting people from purchasing it!
Still waiting for the production serial number range. I have a new DR60 sitting in the UPS box and if it's an early number I want to return it unopened.
Do you folks here a Trew have any problem in making these serial numbers get public? Do you at least have the numbers of the units you got back with problems? It would be a start at least.
I sent the same request to Tascam yesterday (3/27/14). We'll see if they respond.
I've had the same problems with noise going to a Canon Mark III, but I also had problems with dropped files. I'm currently looking at sending this one back. Do these get any better (hearing that the newer ones don't have noise issues)? Thought I really got lucky when I found this unti and heard all of the praise for it. Not so sure now.
Jeff
Johns Creek, GA
-bump- Any news on serial #s? I just received s/n# 00528xx -- would like to know if this in one of the newer units w/o problems?
Hi Jesse. I'm afraid there has been no information issued regarding serial numbers relating to the noise problem described in this thread. Tascam has never acknowledged to me (or anyone that I know of) that this problem existed, but clearly it did. Since this original post was made, Tascam USA is now managed by Gibson (the guitar company), and our contacts have changed. During the transition, communication about the DR60D seemed impossible. However, with your reminder I will investigate it further.
Thanks,
Glen Trew
I just got off the phone with our Tascam rep and sent a recap of the problem history. I was assured that someone will get back with me within two days that can address the still uninsured questions about what, if anything, was changed to address the DR60D noise problem, and when.
Thanks for looking into it... curious to see what they come back with.
Any word on serial numbers affected? How do we know we won't be betting old stock when purchasing at this point?
Thanks for the article !
Super helpful :)
Would love an update as well...
Thanks for this information which sheds light on my situation. I had an early batch DR-60D. Paying $349 for it in late Spring of 2013, and trusting Tascam's name, I assumed that the device must have been fine and that the ground loop and noise issues must have been from some interference with my other equipment. Eventually I realized there were consistent noise issues. I called Tascam just before the warranty expired, and they told me how to do the hardware upgrade and said that it should fix any issues. Unfortunately it has not. There seems to always be noise on Channel 2, and on both channels if the unit is plugged in. I'm prepared to contact Tascam now as this device seems to be unusable for any professional applications. I thought I would see if you have any further information before contacting them. Thank you.
I purchased from TREW. I purchased a bit before production, and now going to use it...it doesn't even turn on. Nada. I'm hoping for some help/refund. I'm an indie filmmaker and need all the help I can get.
This is a piece of junk. Purchased the end of October 2014. Issue: picks up and records noise.
I have over 40 yrs electronics experience and know what I'm talking about.
The only way to remove the noise is to separate the DR-60DmkII from the DSLR camera.
Several cameras were tested and the noise is still there, different between each camera but still noise in the background.
Just to assure those who read this review the following was tested: Different cords - no improvement, different cards - no improvement, no mic at all - no improvement, different cameras - no improvement.
Contacted Tascam and they are of absolutely no help. Tascam suggested using only their approved recording media, that's what we're using already. Tascam suggested sending the product to them in Montebello, California - 4-6 week turn around.
I'm more than a bit ticked off at this waste of money and horrible customer service.
Tascam DR-60D contains cannot solved problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cHns3sSzqc&feature=em-upload_owner